Kate: Right, well my research questions are ‘is monogamy a necessary part of a relationship’ and ‘how damaging is infidelity to a relationship’

Judy: What’s monogamy?

Kate: Monogamy is just when you’re with one person

Judy: Right

Kate: Monogamy is just one partner (.) Urm (2) So either of you can start. Firstly, is monogamy important to you? Basically all I want to do is find out your opinions, there's no like, whatever you say it’s just your opinion. Well, you go first then [Judy]

Judy: Urm (.)

Kate: Come on [laughing]

Judy: Urm. Yeah, I’d say it was defiantly important

Kate: Is that, sort of without

Karen: [laughing] you plonker

Judy: what was I saying? {Yeah it’s important}

Kate: {That it’s important}

Karen: {That it’s important}

Kate: In all relationships? Like (.) so when you’re in a relationship do you always have to be (.) are you always exclusive?

Judy: Actually not, not always. It depends on the type of relationship (Kate: right) So at the start you might not think (.) ‘Oh, yeah’ but (1) like, later on if you’re getting serious then obviously (Kate: yeah)

Kate: Do you think (.) when you go into relationships that it’s assumed that you’re going to be exclusive, you know.

Karen: It is on my part (1) Always

Kate: Do you think you have to say it, like today, would you have to

Judy: Well I’ve been in a relationship where it’s not (.) been ‘oh yeah, you’re the only person I’m seeing’, but it’s not a very nice to be in a situation like that. Although you may not take it seriously from the start (1) It’s, on the other hand it’s not (1) you’ve always got a gut feeling, you’re always wondering so (.) I say it’d it’d help if you knew (Kate: yeah). although all relationships don’t start off

Kate: Do you think you always have to say whether you’re going to be exclusive or (.) agree to see other people, or is it just something that happens. Do you not normally talk about it?

Judy: I think its just somen’t, it depends, it depends on the person and how you know them (.) If you’ve known them in the past, whether you’ve just met them (Kate: yeah). it depends on all sorts of things.

Karen: Well, in my experience of relationships, I’ve always (.) any relationship I’ve been into, its because you’re going out with them (Kate: yeah) and only them, you’re not going out with anyone else. There's no point going out with somebody if you’re just going to go and see other people, because then you’re not going out with them then are you

Kate: So, do you see a difference ‘seeing’ somebody or going out with somebody, is that any difference to you?

Karen: No (.) no. There’s no point. You’re either seeing somebody or you’re not.

Judy: I’d say seeing somebody was. Sounds a little bit more casual than (Kate: yeah) going out with them

Karen: Yeah I know but

Judy: If it’s classed as casual

Karen: thing is though it you’re seeing somebody does that mean you can be with other people? When really

Kate: I don’t know, that’s why I’m asking

Karen: When really you’re not really being with that person then are you? Because you’re really seeing them. It’s just someone you’re coping off with (.) every time you go out

Kate: Yeah and sometimes that leads to something more

Karen: So that to me is not a relationship

Kate: Right

Karen: That’s just something that happens every time you go out

Kate: but, so would you still have relationships like that then? Or would you not call it a relationship?

Karen: I wouldn’t call them relationships

Judy: What would you call them?

Karen: I’d just call them a Friday night pull

Kate: Even if it went on for more?

Karen: Yeah. if it just went on like, each time you went out you ended up snogging this person (Kate: yeah) not having sex, but just snogging them, but you weren’t going out with each other (1) that’s not a relationship. No.

Kate: So for you [Karen] a relationship starts when it’s exclusive then (.) is that so (Karen: definitely) do you normally have to say that?

Judy: No, you cant say that because you (Karen: no) could have a casual relationship

Karen: I’ve never had a casual relationship. I’ve never been (.) yeah, but you’re not going out with them. You cant have a relationship unless you’re going out, you cant have a relationship with someone

Kate: This is Karen, this is what she calls a relationship (Karen: yeah) for her, is something when, just the two of you

Karen: I’ve never ever had to say to anybody ‘this means we’re not snogging anyone else’ because (.) when you ask someone out, they ask you out, its just you two (Kate: yeah)

Kate: Where as

Karen: You don’t

Kate: So would you see (.) like

Judy: I think you can be (1) in a casual relationship (.) the sort of relationship where you’re (Karen: you) always (Karen: no) seeing each other but, yeah (.) but

Kate: You’ve still got something more than just snogging there

Judy: yeah, yeah

Kate: If you see what I mean, where as you’d say [Karen] that’s just copping off on a Friday night, whereas you [Judy] can have something more than that but it still be casual

Judy: Yeah

Kate: and not exclusive

Judy: hmmm

Karen: I don’t think that. Because then its not a relationship (2) because you just, you’re still snogging other people. You can still go out on a Monday night

Judy: yeah, yeah, but {you might not be}

Karen: {and go out and see} {somebody

Judy: {Snogging other people though. It can still be casual like. Yeah, like with [previous boyfriend]

Karen: Yeah

Judy: That’s, that was casual. We were still seeing each other, because I wasn’t getting off with anyone and you, you weren’t getting off with anyone. But I wouldn’t say we were going out with each other

Karen: [laughs] You liar. You got off with two people. (Judy: oh yeah)

[Both laugh]

Karen: she got off with three people when she was going out with Matt. Yeah but, that’s not, that’s not

Judy: [laughing] That’s a fucking contradiction, what I’ve said

Karen: the thing is though that’s not a relationship, well, it was a relationship because you weren’t really meant to be snogging anybody else

Judy: Yeah

Karen: In your mind you weren’t meant to be snogging anyone else. So that means it was a relationship. Because you weren’t meant to be going with anyone else.

Judy: Yeah but I wouldn’t call that a relationship (Karen: but) a relationship is

Karen: No no no no

Judy: Yeah but

Karen: A relationship isn’t serious commitment. A relationship can be a casual relationship, but you’re just faithful to that one person.

Kate: That’s how Karen defines her relationship

Karen: So how do you define a relationship? A relationship doesn’t have to be serious, like you’re gonna get married to this person (Kate: But do you think) or you’re living with this person

Kate: How, say other people, do you think everyone shares that view?

Karen: No. Do they heck, that’s just mine

Judy: I think (.) relationships can be on all different levels (Kate: yeah)

Karen: But for you personally

Judy: There is no personal thing about it. It depends on the type of person, like I said before, whether you’ve known them in the past and how you’ve got to know them (Kate: yeah) I mean with somebody that you’ve known since you were a child, that relationship is going to be different to somebody that you’ve just met and shagged on a night out. Others you might get, you might have pulled them the once, slept with them, have a one night stand (Kate: yeah) that, that relationship can lead on to a relationship (Kate: yeah) but that relationship could start on a different level to somebody that you’ve known since you were a kid (Kate: yeah) so you cant say a relationship is this because you don’t know that until you meet the person (Kate: until it gets there) and, until it gets there, because the type of relationship I’ve had, well with one boyfriend started off on a different level rather than a, a relationship I might have had with, like Dean at the moment (Kate: yeah)

Karen: Yeah I know that, but (4) yeah I know they can start off differently but what I’m saying is (1) a relationship to me (Judy: yeah, ‘cos that’s what I) doesn’t, doesn’t matter how the hell it starts, its just you seeing that one person

Kate: Yeah, but that’s different though, because you wouldn’t, so if you were just casually snogging somebody you wouldn’t class that as a relationship

Karen: No, would I heck

Kate: or seeing somebody?

Karen: No

Kate: Whereas other people if they, like, say it was a regular thing, they went out and they did keep snogging this person they might just say they’re seeing them

Judy: Mmmm

Karen: I, oh right yeah, no, yeah.

Kate: If you see what I mean, and they wouldn’t attach the same, they wouldn’t, they wouldn’t say ‘oh right, we’ve got to be faithful’ but it’s still a casual thing

Karen: Yeah I know what you mean

Kate: But they class it as seeing somebody

Karen: I don’t see the point in saying that, seeing somebody, because you’re not seeing them that’s not, there’s nothing

Kate: You could be seeing lots of people

Karen: Yeah, yeah. It’s just something that happens when ever, when ever you go out (1) and if something evolves beyond that (1) as in like when you’re not (1) you know you decide (Kate: yeah) that you want to see what it’s like just to be together as in a couple, then you don’t snog anyone else

Kate: You don’t look ok [Judy]

Judy: No, I’m just listening

Kate: So what would you both class as er (.) being unfaithful, cheating or

Karen: Snogging

Kate: So for you [Karen] you’d obviously be quite, quite easy to say in a relationship whether somebody was cheating, because you’ve set like (.) once you’re in a relationship (Karen: mmm) then you want to be faithful (Karen: yeah) whereas if you’re having casual relationships its harder to define you know, ‘cos (.) you know if you’re seeing somebody like, what you [Judy] say then people could go off and snog other people couldn’t you? So would you, you wouldn’t class that as cheating or would you?

Judy: Well it depends

Karen: I’d call it cheating

Judy: It’s not cheating if they’re just, its just a casual thing (Kate: yeah)

Karen: and you’re doing the same thing and you both know that

Judy: whether you’re doing the same thing or not, if its, if I’ve said its casual (Kate: yeah) then he, and I’ve said ‘oh, you know’, then he’s got the right to do what he wants. I cant say, oh that’s not fair, (Kate: yeah) you’ve cheated on me, (Kate: yeah) when I’m treating the relationship as a casual one anyway

Kate: Right, so in a proper relationship like committed, where you’ve said you’re gonna be exclusive (Karen: yeah) what would you class as cheating?

Karen: Snogging

Kate: So (.) er (.) does it always have to be physical, what about time spent with somebody else, or (.) is it just if it goes that much further?

Karen: Goes onto an intimate level

Judy: I’d usually say (2) urm (1) I don’t know I’d personally, let me think how I’m going to say this (.) Usually I say, well as long as you don’t touch then that’s fine (Kate: yeah) but, thinking about it (.) If I was enjoying, if I enjoyed being with any other lad and I was enjoying myself with him (Kate: yeah). Say like my friend Ian (.) then (2) that could lead onto something else (Kate: yeah) so even that could be seen as me cheating on Dean, foe example. If I’m enjoy somebody’s (.) (Kate: yeah) (Karen: not that it) or might be

Kate: I think it depends on where its leading

Karen: Yeah, that’s what I mean, yeah.

Kate: But I don’t know, I don’t know

Karen: If you’ve got an attraction towards this person, and you spend a lot of time with them alone, then you shouldn’t

Judy: Basically, if I’m enjoying myself more with somebody else than with my partner, then that’s obviously

Karen: Then there’s something

Judy: But then there's no point being in the relationship (Kate: yeah) if you’re having too much fun with somebody else (Karen: yeah) having a laugh, even if its having a laugh then that’s (Karen: yeah) its not just snogging to me personally. Me doing things with somebody else, and that, enjoying myself more than I would (Kate: yeah) with a boyfriend then that would be cheating (Kate: yeah) but before this I wouldn’t have said that at all. I would have said, oh its alright, you can look as long as you cant touch, but that’s a load of bullshit (Kate: yeah) because if he’s enjoying himself being with you more than he’s enjoying himself with his own girlfriend then that’s

Karen: But there's a difference between enjoyment and liking someone

Judy: Yeah, I’m just, that’s still not fair. If, if I had more fun with somebody else (.) yeah, than I’d just be saying (Karen: yeah but I’m just) that, that means

Karen: Well saying that you could have more fun with a friend, like a girlfriend

Kate: Yeah, but maybe in the wider picture, if generally you’re having more fun with somebody else then you are with your boyfriend (.) then it’s

Judy: Then it’s obviously going to make

Kate: Not like a one off, like you have with a girlfriend then obviously yeah (Karen: mmm) you might have (Karen: yeah)

Judy: I’m not saying go out with your girlfriend to a club and then get pissed and then come home and have a good night like that. I’m just saying having a close friend that you’re really enjoying and you cant wait to be, ‘cos when you’re enjoying yourself with somebody you cant wait to be around them, you like being around that person, they make you laugh and you do things together, you go shopping (Kate: yeah) whereas with your, if you thought (.) oh it’s, like I like when I go shopping with him (Kate: yeah) I have a better time when I go shopping with him and that’s, there’s something not right there anyway

Karen: No, I know what you’re saying, but that to me is not cheating because (.) all you’re doing, you’re enjoying someone when with your partner there's a different level (,) you’ve got a different level with them, because with a friend, when you say you enjoy doing something, there's nothing between you, you just enjoy doing something together more than you would with your partner, doesn’t mean you’re cheating, because with your partner you’ve got a different level of relationship

Kate: But you see you [Karen] might not class that as cheating (Karen: you’ve got to want to be in it) but what Judy’s saying is that its not particularly right, you might not say, oh he’s cheating

Judy: That means you could be happier elsewhere rather than being with your boyfriend (Karen: yeah I know but) if you’re having a better time with somebody else, that means you could be having a better time in life in general (Kate: yeah). I’m not here to argue with you

Karen: Yeah I know that, yeah, yeah I know that.

Judy: [laughs] But (.) I’m not saying cheating as in snogging or shagging them (Karen: yeah) but thinking about it, I wouldn’t like it if my boyfriend was having a better time with some, with some other bird (Kate: yeah) and I’m sure he wouldn’t like it if I enjoyed being with one of my, well say Ian or somebody

Kate: So is there (2) which, like for you Judy, which do you think would be worse then, if somebody went off and snogged somebody or like, say if somebody was enjoying somebody’s time or

Judy: If Dean was enjoying somebody else, like spending his time with somebody else, I think that would hurt me a lot more than him just snogging somebody else (Kate: yeah) definitely by far

Kate: What about you Karen? What do you think, or do you not see any difference?

Karen: Urm (2) Just snogging somebody at a club that they’ve just met?

Kate: I don’t know urm

Karen: Because if you were saying if they were snogging a close friend, and then

Kate: Then you’d have both of them

Karen: The definitely snogging a close friend would over come just enjoying being with some other close friend. But if you’re just snogging somebody that you’d met in a club (.) and you’d prefer to spend most of your time with, with person you enjoyed, and not your girlfriend, then obviously yeah (Kate: yeah) that’s worse than snogging

Kate: Do you think you’d be able to forgive somebody if they were unfaithful?

Karen: If they snogged someone?

Kate: Yeah (.) well, we’ll just talk

Karen: In the past, yeah, in the past relationships I think well, if they did it to me I’d go and do it to them, that’s what I used to think like (Kate: yeah) and but, as the relationship (.) because you feel differently for each person (Kate: yeah) you can really really like this person but, you like them but if they snogged them, then you’d think, oh you know, I’ll just go and do it to you (Kate: yeah), but as you, as you get in to a different relationship you feel differently about someone (Kate: yeah) like now I feel different, I feel a lot, loads different about Martin than I did about anybody else. So (.) if he, if he snogged somebody, then I wouldn’t just think, oh, I’ll go and do it to him (Kate: yeah) it would really hurt me, but I don’t think, if it was just a one off thing, I don’t think that’s worth breaking up a, a good relationship over, at all (.) because it could just be a one off thing and it could never happen again, he could really regret it, yeah (.) I don’t think it’s breaking up, if they did it again then obviously it’s not a one off thing

Kate: No. What kind of circumstances if, would it make any difference if they were drunk or

Karen: No

Kate: I mean like

Karen: You know what you’re doing when you’re pissed (1) I know what I’m doing when I’m pissed

Kate: So, generally you’d let them have one mistake or whatever. What about if they slept with somebody else?

Karen: [sighs] Its a lot more personal than kissing

Kate: So even if somebody’s completely sober and snogged somebody, you’d forgive them, but if somebody went and shagged somebody that’s, why?

Karen: Well, yeah, because you could just like (.) I don’t know (.) because I don’t think its worth just, just a kiss, yeah, that, they, you’ve, you’re never, they’re never gonna do again, yeah, its not as intimate as shagging somebody (Kate: yeah) because when you're shagging someone, even though when you’re kissing them you know you shouldn’t be kissing them (1) but shagging them’s on a different level, you, you’ve kissed them and thought, oh yeah, lets go back to yours and shag (Kate: yeah). But you could kiss them and think, oh fuck, oh that, I’m not shagging you (Kate: yeah)

Kate: What if for the guy it was the same though, what if they thought that, you know, they didn’t feel any (.) like worse for sleeping with somebody than they did for snogging, do you see what I mean? Or they didn’t see any more commitment in shagging somebody (Karen: yeah) would that, would you change how you felt, or do you think there always has to be more, commitment (Karen: for me) or more involvement if somebody’s shagging

Karen: For me (.) there is definitely more involvement if they’re, if you’re shagging someone, that just snogging somebody (Kate: yeah)

Kate: What about you [Judy]

Judy: I weren’t listening [laughs] go on, what?

Kate: Would you like, so would you forgive somebody, if somebody went off and snogged, like your partner went off and cheated, just kissed someone else, do you think you’d be able to forgive the?

Judy: Probably not

Kate: Do you think you’d, would you want to end the relationship?

Judy: I’d want to forgive them, but I don’t think I could

Kate: Do you think you’d be able to continue the relationship?

Judy: I don’t think so

Kate: So definitely if they’d shagged somebody else

Judy: No, definitely not

Karen: So if Dean went off and just snogged someone, one thing and regretted it completely, wished he’d never did it again

Judy: I’d want to forgive him, but I don’t think (.) deep, deep down, it would always be there, he’d be going out with his mates and I’d be sat at home thinking, ‘oh, oh’ and I don’t want to be in that situation, because you naturally would (Kate: yeah) so I’d rather (.) get over it in time, rather than every time (Karen: yeah, but) he’s going out or getting pissed or going away or (Kate: yeah) going to visit his friend in London, instead of me having to sit at home thinking, oh, I wonder what he’s up to, (Karen: yeah, but you could) then (1) probably not. I’d want to forgive him because I don’t think its worth, just going like, after, right we’ve been together five years, he’s snogged somebody, right it’s over, but (.) that does, I think that does depend on the type of person you are and the affect it can do. Because (.) until it’s happened to me I wont actually know. I might sit here and go, oh no, but when it does actually happen, I might be able to get over it in time. But personally sitting here now and thinking about it, I think I’m the type of person that would always think about it (Kate: yeah) and it would bring me down and change me as a person in time (Kate: yeah). so there’s no point in carrying on the relationship for another fifty years, and making it a (.) like a (.) making me be in a relationship where I’m constantly thinking, or though I might not, not one day (Kate: yeah), but I think it’s just a matter of

Karen: Does that mean you’d end it straight away or would you

Judy: Well, I don’t know how I’d end it

Karen: or would you see

Judy: but, I don’t think I’d like to be in a situation

Karen: or would you see if, if you could not think about it (.) would you just think, no, right that’s it, cant

Judy: I don’t know how I’d end it, but I don’t think

Karen: or would you leave it for a bit and see if you could cope with it and see if you could not think about it when he went out

Judy: Well, when its happened to you and somebody tells you, when you find out, you know what the (.) the feelings that you get then (.) the things that you think

Karen: You don’t think you would

Judy: will make your mine up straight away wont they really and I think (3) yeah that’s it. Was that clear?

Kate: Yeah. yeah that’s fine. So have any of you had experiences

Karen: yeah

Kate: of cheating or being cheated on, I don’t know

Karen: [laughs] er, yeah

Kate: Karen, you can start

Karen: [laughs] well, it was only something when I was like seventeen

Kate: let’s start, are you going to talk about cheating or being cheating on?

Karen: I’ve cheated on someone. This was only snogging them. I urm (.) I was seventeen, I was seeing this guy and urm, went out to a club with, with Emma, looked fucking ugly [Judy laughs], spots all over my face. I looked in the mirror and thought, god I look ugly, and I thought well, it doesn’t matter if I look ugly, I’m not going out to pull anyway because I’ve got a boyfriend. But I went and there was this gut that I’d seen out, because it’s one of Emma’s friend’s friends and he urm (.) looks like Gary Barlow actually, and he was there and he was pissed and I was dancing and Emma was there and I was thinking (.) he kept looking over, fuck if Emma goes now I just know he’s going to come over. But I thought he was a really nice good looking guy (Kate: yeah) thinking I cant snog him and then Emma disappears and thinking shit, and I didn’t leave the dance floor until he came over and then I kissed him for about three seconds and then my minds saying fuck, I shouldn’t be doing this, pushed him away and walked off. But I felt really bad. Really, I felt awful, for the whole of the rest of the night I felt so guilty and the next morning, the next day I was crying in work because I felt really bad (Kate: yeah) even though it was just a (.) it was a relationship where you weren’t meant to be snogging anyone else and I, I was only seventeen but, I just still felt really bad and I wouldn’t do it again. ‘Cos I didn’t (Kate: yeah) I didn’t like the feeling then (.) so I certainly didn’t like the feeling then

Kate: So what urm, when you (.) like did you feel, did you think that before you cheated that time, did you think that it would be really wrong (Karen: yeah) and you’d feel guilty?

Karen: yeah

Kate: So come you still did it?

Karen: ‘Cos he was fit

Kate: Right. So your mind wasn’t dead set as like, you know, you’re a person who’s never going to cheat no matter what. Well, I don’t think you can probably say that until you’ve come across it

Karen: Yeah, I realise, yeah. ‘Cos when then it was just one of those relations that you had, it wasn’t as if I was in love with this person (Kate: yeah) nothing like that. I wasn’t have sex with him, I was, we were just together (Kate: yeah) but without anybody else and this guy came over to me and I just couldn’t, I don’t know, I just didn’t walk away (Kate: yeah)

Kate: So what happened with the relationship?

Karen: I didn’t tell him. I just forgot about it. I didn’t feel guilty after the, after, after I’d cried (Kate: yeah) I thought fuck it, there’s no point telling him (Kate: yeah) it’s not as if it’s really, really serious and I’m going to feel really guilty for not telling him (Kate: yeah). but I just know I wouldn’t do it again

Kate: Was that the only time then?

Karen: That was the only time

Kate: What about you [Judy] have you ever been unfaithful?

Judy: urm. Yeah

Kate: What ever you’d class as unfaithful or (Judy: yeah) what your partner of the time

Judy: Yeah I have

Karen: [laughs] and she didn’t feel guilty about it at all

Judy: well I thought, it was the first time I’d ever cheated on anybody in my whole entire life (Kate: yeah). I didn’t think I’d do it

Kate: So how did it happen? What kind of relationship were you in?

Judy: It was a casual relationship (.) but where you wouldn’t be seeing anybody else or snogging anybody else. Urm, back then, my attitude to life and lads in general was just like, I was in control, I’d never, I’d, it was a relationship where I wouldn’t, I’d just sit back and let him ask me if he wanted to go to the pictures (Kate: yeah) but I did (.) really like him (Kate: yeah) and urm (.) but

Karen: There's nothing wrong with liking someone in the past is there?

Judy: Yeah, that’s true. Urm but (.) when (.) the first time I cheated on him (.) I woke up the next day and, was I ok?

Karen: [laughing] yeah, you were fine

Judy: yeah, I was fine

Karen: You were like, shit, I, I cheated on Matt last nigh didn’t I? Oh, that was it

Kate: yeah

Judy: and then the second time I cheated on him urm

Karen: [laughing] not even thought about it

Judy: was in [Local nightclub] and then the third time I cheated on him it started off like, I gave my number out to this lad in [local nigh club] and urm we called each other and were speaking on the phone for a very long time and then I actually went down to Stafford to meet him (Kate: yeah) (.) and

Karen: You weren’t seeing Matt then were you?

Judy: We were still

Karen: With Adam?

Judy: Not Adam, with thingy, Neil

Karen: Oh Neil, yeah.

Judy: and I went down and (.) I stayed the night over (Kate: yeah) at, in Stafford, with somebody that I’d only spoken to on the phone

Kate: Did you sleep with him?

Karen: But that one was a bit more

Judy: Towards the end (Karen: you were thinking about that), towards the end when the relationship was dying down (Kate: yeah) and then he came along, and it was like the best thing on earth (Kate: yeah) and then as soon as (.) we sort of like finished and I was sort of like seeing this other bloke (Kate: yeah) that I met at [night club]

Kate: So er, did (.) did you ever tell (.) your partner at the time?

Judy: No, no, not at all [laughs]

Kate: Is that just because it wasn’t a big deal (.) or was it because it wasn’t a big deal to you or wasn’t a big deal in the relationship, you know, in the context of the relationship, or do think it would have bothered him?

Judy: I think it was the fact that it was towards the summer and everything was dying down anyway, but saying that I think I still would have done the things even if it was in the middle of the relationship. You know (Kate: yeah) if the relationship was to carry on (Kate: mmm) I still would have done the things, I would have done without any regret (Kate: yeah)

Kate: But you don’t (.) think it affected like, the relationship?

Judy: No

Kate: Right, so have you ever been

Karen: Cheated on?

Kate: Cheated on (4) that you know of, or that you maybe think

Karen: Maybe think with Craig because er (.) it was like (2) it was about (.) say 3 weeks, to a month before we split up and he was on the phone to Emma, and I was actually in the room. I was on the phone to Emma but he didn’t know that (.). He was talking about this bird that he liked and that he went for a drink with to the pub (Kate: yeah) (.) now (.) there was a big, big do, who-ha thing about this because (.) Craig was telling me one thing, ‘I never went to a drink with anybody that I liked in a pub’ yeah and Emma was telling me another (Kate: yeah) now it wasn’t that I didn’t believe Emma, and I didn’t believe Craig. I was just thinking like fuck, my best mate and my boyfriend are telling me two contradicting stories and I couldn’t decide who was right and who was wrong (Kate: yeah) so I just thought ‘fuck it, I’m not thinking about it’ and just ignored it completely (Kate: yeah) and in a way that was the wrong thing to do (.) but I couldn’t decide because if I went with Emma, then it was like my boyfriend I don’t believe what he’s saying (Kate: yeah) and then if I went with him then I don’t believe what my best friend’s saying (Kate: yeah) so I just fucking ignored it and just (.) ‘cos he denied it. But now, looking back on it (.) prob, probably did do it (Kate: yeah) because after we split up (2) about, I don’t know, a week after, I still liked him (.) he knew that and he snogged his cousin (.) on my floor (.) in halls (Kate: yeah) on my, my fucking room while I was, while I was in bed (Kate: yeah) in the morning, knowing full well that I still liked him and he denied that to Judy on the phone (Kate: yeah) and Judy said are you sure he did it, and I was like, fucking yeah, and then he admitted it to her (Kate: yeah) now because he did that then maybe he probably, then maybe he could have (Kate: yeah) gone out with this girl that he liked, which he probably did like (.) and he could I don’t know, I don’t know if, I don’t know if he kissed the girl because I wouldn’t see Craig as the cheating type (Kate: yeah)

Kate: So I was going to say why do you think he did it (.) was it because of (.) your relationship was, with him, or was it just the type of person {was}

Karen: {No} because I reckon it was towards the end of the relationship where I was changing and he was seeing a different person than I used to be, when we first started going out. And urm (.) towards the end of the relationship I started changing (.) for him (.) to please him (Kate: yeah) and that’s completely wrong, because that wasn’t me (.) I was me me, I was you know ‘fuck it’ you know, ‘friends friends friends’, ‘boyfriend boyfriend boyfriend’, friends you know (Kate: yeah) but towards the end of the relationship I was more like (.) fuck, boyfriend, friends you know (Kate: yeah) and urm (1) and I just wasn't as out going as I used, as I would have been (1) and maybe, so he was probably just not liking me as much as he did (Kate: yeah) and so this you know, he went for a drink with this girl (.) ‘cos at the beginning of the relationship I knew that he liked me a lot (Kate: yeah) (.)

Kate: So you don’t think he would have cheated then

Karen: [Sighs] (1) I’d hate it if he did, but I don’t think he did

Kate: What about you Judy?

Judy: When I was seeing Sam, there was a rumour (1) that came to me through my cousins’ boyfriend (.) urm, but there was no way, I tried for weeks and weeks and weeks to find out if it was actually true and there was no way that I could like, even find out whether it was like, even fifty percent true (Kate: yeah) urm. So to this day I still don’t know whether or not the rumour was true (Kate: yeah) urm (.) but that’s it. That’s as far as I know

Kate: Did you ask him about it?

Judy: Yeah and

Kate: Did he deny it?

Judy: Yeah totally and it went on for weeks ‘cos I (.) I really wanted to know, I needed to know (Karen: mmm) so

Kate: What kind of relationship was that though?

Judy: It was a really long relationship

Kate: and how, how what rumours, I mean like, was it your friend telling you or

Judy: No, it was my (1) cousins’ boyfriend telling me, but he was known to be abit of a, like a gossiper and

Kate: Make things up?

Judy: yeah, but still to this day it might have been true, it might not have been. There was no way I could have found out my self (Kate: yeah)

Karen: Just out, hang on, just out of curiosity do you think Craig did?

Judy: No [laughs]

Karen: No. hmmm

Kate: and how do you, do you think about your Sam, do you think he would have

Judy: No I don’t think he did, but the, its always the ones that you don’t think end up doing it, you’ve always got to (Kate: yeah)

Kate: So (.) like generally, do you think its like (.) the strength like (.) do you think somebody’s always gonna be a cheater or (Karen: no) do you think it’s, it depends on the relationship whether somebody cheats or is it that person, you know, is it how they see things

Karen: I think its all three (.) that person could just be a natural person that doesn’t, that couldn’t be arsed with it and just does it anyway. But that person could be, do it in one relationship but not in another depending on how they feel (Kate: yeah) or that person could just never do it ever (Kate: yeah)

Kate: Which do you think, do you think they’re all (.) like equally occurring, you know in, in society or out there, or do you think

Karen: They’re probably more relationships out there where people cheat

Kate: Why do you think that is?

Karen: ‘cos er (.) probably statistics, probably something I don’t think (Kate: yeah) more people probably cheat than you would think. More people get divorces, one out of three people get divorced {most, most divorces} are probably because

Judy: {I think its because}

Kate: From

Judy: there's a lot more educated people out there, having to do more jobs, having to work away from your partner you might, you know your partner you might, you know you partner might. Maybe its like, I don’t know London and you might (Kate: yeah) have to work out four nights a week and there a lot more freedom within relationships today (Kate: yeah) so you’re constantly meeting new people, putting yourself in different situations. You’re having to attend meetings here, whereas if (1) I don’t know. I don’t want to be stereotyping but there’s going to be less chance if you’ve got nothing to do a part from sit at home (Karen: mmm) looking after your kids all day (Kate: yeah) than having a full blown career where you’re having to travel left, right and centre

Karen: But fair enough (.) if you’re having a career (.) then if you cheat it depends on the strength of your relationship, ‘cos obviously its not strong enough

Judy: It depends on the type of person you are as well, ‘cos if you’re the type of person that {does mind}

Karen: {yeah but} Yeah choose to, fair enough but (.) just because you’re away from your partner (.) and you’re working away does not mean (.) that there's more chance of you being able to cheat

Judy: See that thing {is that, that’s how you might think}

Karen: {‘cos it depends on the strength of your relationship}

Judy: That’s how you might think, {I could}

Karen: {‘cos if}

Judy: be happily married, not be personally but I imagine that there's people out there ‘cos people say ‘I love two people’ (.) you know, ‘I’m in love with two people’ so that doesn’t mean (.) that (.) you, you know. it doesn’t mean that I’m a hundred and ten percent happily married, but I’m definitely not going to meet (.) or I’m not gonna (.) cheat ‘cos you. It would be nice to say that (Karen: yeah) and it would be nice to believe that, but if you’re in a situation when you meet somebody and you click {and}

Karen: {so if} you think, so if you were me in my situation where you only saw Dean at the weekend

Judy: No I’m not saying {that}

Karen: {that} that there's more of a chance for you (Judy: no) that something could happen

Judy: No I’m not saying that at all

Karen: what are you {saying then}

Judy: {what I am saying} is when you’re out and when you’re moving and you

Kate: You’re not just saying that they’d have greater opportunity are you

Judy: But there's going to be {more opportunity}

Karen: {but at university} you’re meeting shit loads of people {aren’t you}

Judy: {when, when you’re} working away from home, its like that women, she lives in a hotel, she stays in a hotel, she comes back home for three nights of the week and she’s staying as hotels and with and staying with her colleagues at different places. So there's going to be more of a chance in that situation than you living with your partner (Kate: yeah) seeing them once a week, I mean, seven times a week

Karen: So the way you're saying is there's more of a chance for you not {to do it}

Judy: {I’m not} saying me, I’m saying in general

Karen: Well no, you then (.) don’t say people in general you

Kate: well no, because its fair to say though isn’t it, if, if you're not with your partner, you're spending ten percent of your time at home

Karen: yeah I know but

Kate: No listen, and then ninety percent away you're going to be meeting more people aren’t you

Karen: Yeah

Kate: in a different environment so

Judy: I’m not here to argue with you

Karen: I know, I know

Kate: I don’t mean to say that you're more likely you're gonna cheat

Karen: Yeah, I know that

Kate: But you’ve got added opportunity, {You’ve got more reason}

Karen: {yeah but you could say that I could} say that. Yeah it doesn’t, its not what I think. It’s not what I would do, what I’m saying is, what would you think

Judy: Are you interviewing me here? [Karen] (Karen: yeah) or is this

Karen: It doesn’t matter what you say, its your opinion what would you think, if you were the person

Judy: I have no idea

Kate: I think we {should just stick to the issue}

Judy: {I’d like to believe that} (.) no you wouldn’t (Kate: yeah)

Karen: But you cant one hundred percent believe that?

Judy: well, nobody can say one hundred percent I’m sticking with my partner

Karen: I can, I can fucking say that

Judy: You can’t say that

Karen: Yeah I can (.) I know for a fact that

Judy: It would be nice to say it, yeah I’d say it, yeah I’m going to be with my {partner}

Karen: {yeah} but you don’t believe it though

Judy: Well I’m not saying I don’t believe it

Karen: No, no you said

Judy: I’m not saying I don’t, I’m saying it’s like, it’s it’s something that could occur, there's no point in blanking everything {out saying you’re going} to be one hundred percent

Karen: {yeah, yeah I know but} no, no, but you just said then (.) that you’d like to say it but you couldn’t and I said I could say it, I could say it very trusting {knowing}

Judy: {Do you} understand what I’m saying? [Kate]

Kate: yeah I understand {what you’re saying}

Judy: {could we move on to} the next question then [Kate laughs] because she’s winding me up [Judy and Karen laugh]

Karen: I know for a fact that I wouldn’t do anything ever and if I did (.) then there's no point (.) being with that person

Judy: Ok then

Karen: I think if you cheat there's something wrong with that relationship

Kate: But the whole point is you’re not going to know that

Judy: Yeah, but the thing is not, there's not, not always something wrong with the relationship

Kate: that was actually what I was going to bring it to

Judy: that is not, it doesn’t mean ‘oh yeah’ {‘cos I’m going}

Karen: {So why would} you cheat then?

Judy: I don’t know why I’d cheat, I’m not saying I would cheat

Karen: So what

Judy: so asking the question, I’m just saying it doesn’t mean the only reason that somebody cheats in a relationship is because there's something wrong with the relationship at home, you know at the start

Kate: It’s like urm, there was, I don’t know if you saw it, there was a drama on T.V.

Judy: You’ve got to {be realistic about things}

Kate: {I think it finished like} two weeks ago, and it was called ‘The best of both worlds’ and I didn’t see all of it, but one, she was happily married, I’m sure, I think she was happily married and she had a kid (.) and she was an air-hostess (Karen: mm) and she still, there was never, there was nothing wrong with her marriage at home, but she still went off and had this affair, got married to this other guy and had these two separate lives (Karen: but there must have been) and at the end of the day, she said nothing was wrong with her husband and nothing was wrong with him

Judy: I don’t believe that {something has to be wrong}

Kate: {It was just different}

Karen: I don’t think something wrong but there's something missing, because you're finding something in a different relationship that you’ve not got at home (Kate: yeah but) because if you’ve got that at home there's no need to go and find it somewhere else

Judy: that’s what, that’s what you might think (Karen: yeah) but other people might, might enjoy (.) or

Karen: enjoy what?

Kate: Is it realistic to say that you can get everything from one person though

Karen: yeah

Kate: is it fair to say (.) that one person can offer you everything and then someone else coming along cant offer you a different experience that might be equally nice (1) that’s why, you know, like people say you can be in love with two people and you cant choose. You cant fault one and you cant fault the other (.) do you see what I mean?

Karen: yeah, but with love, you’re in love with two people but different kinds of love though (.) because with one person, you love them for this bit, the other person you love them for this bit, they’re completely different people so there's something that’s not right (.) two different people (.0 two different personalities, two different beliefs

Kate: yeah but you wouldn’t say that

Karen: and you love this one, and you love this one, so obviously there's something missing (.) because you love two people and if you combine those two people together (.) then

Kate: well no, because people can be nice in equally different ways though

Judy: It doesn’t mean, what, I, her point [Kate] here is (1) I’m not the only person that Dean would think is the right one, ‘cos there isn’t just, that you know, he’s the right one {that you’ll know}

Karen: [laughs] {I don’t think Dean} thinks that

Judy: no, I’m not saying that, do you understand what I’m saying?

Kate: Yeah, yeah, let Judy say

Judy: I’m not saying that I don’t think he’s the right one, it’s nice to believe and it makes you feel better (Kate: yeah) but it doesn’t mean that there's not some other bird out there, or some one other girl that’s going to make him equally as happy, or even more happier (Kate: yeah) so, to think, just because I met Dean or Deans met me doesn’t mean that, ‘oh, after Judy that’s it, I’m never going to find anybody else that’s going to make me laugh the way she does or’ do you understand?

Kate: Yeah

Judy: So I think it’s a load of bull, when you say ‘yeah (.) love is love, that’s it’ because there's more (Kate: yeah) to love than just

Kate: Than just one person

Karen: No, no, I believe that you can find some, find the same thing you found in someone else, in someone else, but, what I’m saying is (.) when you’re with this person, say if this person dies (.) you go off and find someone else

Judy: an example I think, can think of an example

Karen: you will never love that person as much as you loved the first person you married because they died

Judy: I’ll give you an example, Sharon, she was engaged to the guy that she thought was the one (Kate: yeah) now look at the life she’s living now that he dumped her (Karen: mmm) compared to the life she was having with him, now the bloke that she’s, she met now (Karen: mmm) They go out, he buys her stuff, he treats her (.) whereas, when she was in the relationship with the guy that she was engaged with, he, he did nothing for her. So now she’s looking back at, at that relationship and thinking ‘oh god, thank god I’m out of there’ (Kate: yeah) whereas at the time she was thinking ‘oh he’s the one, I want, he’s’ (Kate: yeah) do you understand? So that an example of

Kate: well its really difficult to say ‘cos, if you’re in a relationship (.) how can you say its not the one if you feel it, but you don’t often don’t know until you’re out of it (Karen: yeah) and you’ve got something to compare it to, you know, you wouldn’t know

Karen: But that doesn’t mean that the person you’re with isn’t the one

Kate: so do you, Karen do you believe there is like the one for just you, you know

Karen: well, I think there's more than one person for you. It depends on who you find first though

Kate: so do you not think that (.) like if you worked at a relationship then any relationship could equally as good

Karen: At the same time?

Kate: no, just like (.) one after the other or at the same time

Karen: I think a relationship can be on the same level as a different relationship (.) but there's no way I’d ever have them at the same time. One relationship is a relationship to me. I would get rid of that person and then move on to a different relationship

Judy: So yeah, that my attitude as well (Karen: yeah) I’d never cheat on Dean

Karen: because you could, ‘cos you, you could you can be married to someone, they could die or they could, or he could be divorced ‘cos he cheated on you. There's no, not, not say then ‘oh I’m never going to find happiness now ‘cos that’s the one’ (Kate: yeah) yeah

Judy {yeah, but you were saying that that was the one}

Kate: {so if something happened that you and Martin} split up

Karen: No, no, I was saying that’s the one for me now, yeah, that’s the one I want to spend, that’s the one I want to spend the rest of my life with now. But what I’m saying is (.) he's now, I’d never ever (.) find someone else as well at the same time, because I wouldn’t ever contain the idea in my head. It’d just be something (.) I wouldn’t even (.) I wouldn’t even accept them as somebody. But what I’m

Kate: I think Judy is just saying she’s, I’m going to say realistic, not saying that, that’s the what's bound to happen, she’s just more open to the fact that it could happen

Karen: Yeah, even though you’re going out with somebody

Kate: yeah

Karen: I don’t think that

Kate: would you think that it couldn’t happen at all?

Karen: not with me no (.) it happens with other people, just not for me

Kate: I think we’re about done, unless there's anything you two want to talk about

Karen: no

Judy: I quite enjoyed that actually